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Очень хочешь возразить,
но возразить нечем.
Не теряйся, спроси,
-А, ты кто такой?! -
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У них изменился сорт семян или чего-то там из пищи, и организм прореагировал адаптацией клюва под новый корм.
Это произошло очень быстро ( за десятилетия), и никакое выживание и отбор наиболее приспособленных и т.п. здесь не причем. Всё это было заложено изначально и реализовалось через регуляторные генные механизмы. Поступление новой пищи - изменение экспрессии - изменение внутривидового признака.
Можно назвать это микроэволюцией, можно видовой модификацией, но вьюрки так и остались вьюрками. Механизмы СТЭ тут никаким боком.Комментарий
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Надо же, а вот Рухленко пишет "единственное, что мы можем «вытащить» из этого примера это действие естественного отбора". Т.е. Рухленко в данном случае признает действие естественного отбора. Он дурачок?
А вы, значит, хотите, чтобы на наших глазах вьюрки стали слонами, т.е. требуете такого, чего по теории эволюции быть не может.но вьюрки так и остались вьюркамиКомментарий
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Организм прореагировал???
Вы уверенны?
В любом случае опишите пожалуйста механизм этого реагирования.
Я повторяю вопрос. Куда исчезли вьюрки с маленькими клювами за несколько сухих лет?Это произошло очень быстро ( за десятилетия), и никакое выживание и отбор наиболее приспособленных и т.п. здесь не причем.
̶И̶м̶я̶, ̶с̶е̶с̶т̶р̶а̶,̶ ̶и̶м̶я̶.̶Всё это было заложено изначально и реализовалось через регуляторные генные механизмы. Поступление новой пищи - изменение экспрессии - изменение внутривидового признака.
Можно назвать это микроэволюцией, можно видовой модификацией, но вьюрки так и остались вьюрками. Механизмы СТЭ тут никаким боком.
Механизм, Евгений, механизм.
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Я же говорил, ничего они не читают и читать не собираются.Очень хочешь возразить,
но возразить нечем.
Не теряйся, спроси,
-А, ты кто такой?!Комментарий
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))) да, было время когда атеисты еще не боялись вступать со мной в дискуссию, щас то я забил им баки окончательно и бесповоротно и они меня боятся)))
Вьюрки являются не видами а морфами, т.к. скрещиваются и дают плодовитое потомство, так же как кстати и березовые пяденицы. Так что это не пример эволюции по стэ)))Комментарий
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естественном отборе до Дарвине
Weltmurksbude: Natural selection before Darwin and Wallace
Дидро
Denis Diderot, in 1749, anonymously published the Lettre sur les aveugles. The pages 77-112 therein contain a passage of which I give the English translation by Margaret Jourdain (1916, pp. 111-112). The scene is a talk between a blind philosopher Saounderson and a clergyman, Mr. Holmes, summoned to the philosopher's deathbed:
For instance, I may ask you and Leibniz and Clarke and Newton, who told you that in the first instance of the formation some were not headless and others footless?
I might affirm that such an one had no stomach, another no intestines, that some which seemed to deserve a long duration from their possession of a stomach, palate, and teeth came to an end owing to some defect in the heart or lungs; that monsters mutually destroyed one another; that all the defective combinations of matter disappeared, and that those only survived whose mechanism was not defective in any important particular and who were able to support and perpetuate themselves.
Вымирание "безголовых, безгногих монстров " эта идея идёт от Эмпедокла, потом Лукреция.
Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis (1751. Essay de Cosmologie) is, so far, the earliest source I know, in which the principle of natural selection or survival of the fittest was clearly stated. As typical for this time, however, natural selection was thought to keep the species fixed to their place in nature (we'd say niche). Natural selection was a mechanism of god's providence and thought to be mutually exclusive with species transmutation. This is why the sub-heading of this essay reads: "Which examinesthe evidence for God's existence from the Wonders of Nature."
Вымирание неприспособленных
Chance, one would say, produced an innumerable multitude of individuals; a small number found themselves constructed in such a manner that the parts of the animal were able to satisfy its needs; in another infinitely greater number, there was neither appropriateness nor order: all of these latter have perished. Animals lacking a mouth could not live; others lacking reproductive organs could not perpetuate themselves: the species we see today are but the smallest part of what blind destiny has produced.
Some translate "convenace" with "fitness" ( наиболее приспособленыый) instead of "appropriateness," in order to make the semblance clearer.
Joseph Tonwsend 1786. republished in 1817, "A Dissertation on the Poor Laws, by a well-wisher to mankind." (London: Ridgeways) seems to have inspired Thomas Mathus's (1798) Essay on the Principle of Population (see here for a separate blog post on this issue).
In it is a passage containing a short statement of natural selection (survival of the fittest). It is also highly reminiscent of later population ecological reasoning. But it is given in a context of discussing the poor laws and not organic evolution. That is, it is not proposed as a mechanism for the transformation of species. It could not possibly do so on its own without heritable variation and the other parts of the Darwinian explanatory system in place.
James Hutton 1794. "Investigation of the Principles of Knowledge and of the Progress of Reason, from Sense to Science and Philosophy." (Vol. 2, chap. 3, section 13, p. 501") reproduced in the Supplementary information to Paul N. Pearson's "In Retrospect." (2003. Nature 425, p. 665):
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Now, this [adaptation through seminal variation and selection] will be evident, when we consider, that if an organised body is not in the situation and circumstances best adapted to its sustenance and propagation, then, in conceiving an indefinite variety among the individuals of that species, we must be assured, that, on the one hand, those which depart most from the best adapted constitution, will be the most liable to perish, while, on the other hand, those organised bodies, which most approach to the best constitution for the present circumstances, will be best adapted to continue, in preserving themselves and multiplying the individuals of their race."
Thomas R. Malthus 1798. An Essay on the Principle of Population ) was a major source of inspiration for Matthew, Wallace and Darwin for their insight into the importance of natural selection in evolution.
The race of plants and the race of animals shrink under this great restrictive law. And the race of man cannot, by any efforts of reason, escape from it. Among plants and animals its effects are waste of seed, sickness, and premature death. Among mankind, misery and vice.
William Charles Wells 1813/1818. ("Two Essays: one upon single vision with two eyes; the other on dew...". Archibald Constable and Co., Edinburgh). Pages 423-437 contain An Account of a Female of the White Race of Mankind, part of whose skin resembles that of a negro; with some observations on the causes of the differences in colour and form between the white and negro races of men This has been read before the Royal Society of London in 1813, but not been published in its transactions. This is interesting because the next anticipator (Adams 1814
Joseph Adams 1814. (A Treatise on Hereditary Disease." London: J. Callow). Mind that the context is a treatise on hereditary disease meant for the general public. The public seems to have been frightened by the misconception that hereditary meant doom to the children of those who had a hereditary disease in the family. Adams anticipated many concepts of medical genetics, which would now be called recessiveness, penetrance etc. (see Weiss 2008).
In a state of nature the race of all gregarious animals is probably progressively improving, as far as is consistent with their capacity for improvement. The strongest male becomes the virgregis, and consequently, the father of most of the offspring.
Augustin Pyramus de Candolle 1820. Géographie Botanique contained the following passage:
"All the plants of a country, those of a given location, are in a state of war each. All are equipped with means of reproduction and nutrition more or less effective. The first that establish themselves by chance in a given location, tend, by the mere fact that they occupy the ground, to exclude other species: the biggest stifle the smaller; the more perennial replace those with a shorter duration; the most fertile gradually seize the space that could otherwise be filled by slower multiplying ones." (my translation)
John Claudius Loudon, 1822 ("An Encyclopaedia of Gardening." London: Longman, Hurst, Rees, Brown and Green), is particularly relevant to the claim, sometimes aired, that Darwin and Wallace plagiarised Matthew (see below) because Matthew, in turn, lifted his insights from Loudon (see here).
imagine that every year an enormous quantity of seeds, produced by the existing vegetables, are spread over the surface of the globe, by the winds and other causes already mentioned, all of these seeds which fall in places suitable for their vegetation, and are not destroyed by animals, germinate and produce plants; then among these plants, the strongest, and largest, and those to which the soil is best suited, developed themselves in number and magnitude so as to choke the others. Such is the general progress of nature, and among plants, as among animals, the strong flourish at the expense of the weak. These causes have operated for such a length of time, that the greater number of species are now fixed and considered as belonging to certain soils, situations, and climates, beyond which they seldom propagate themselves otherwise than by the hands of man."
James Cowles Prichard 1826. Researches into the physical history of mankind. Second edition, Vol. 2. John and Arthur Arch, Cornhill. Spoiler: racism. Page 573:
in such a way as to produce races fitted for each mode and condition of existence. A great part of this plan of local adaptation appears to have been accomplished by the original modification of a genus into a variety of species. It has been further continued, and the same end promoted, by the ramification of a species into several varieties.
Besides, it appears probable that those local circumstances, which are most congenial to particular races, do in fact promote the appearance of those varieties which are best suited to them, or tend to give rise to their production in the breed.
Francis Corbaux 1829. ("On the laws of mortality, and the intensity of human life." The Philosophical Magazine 5: 198-205.) Corbaux formulated an idea of natural selection in an odd combination with senescence. In one passage he even wrote about the "natural selection" due to individual competition between centenaries. This does not only show that he had not fully understood that natural selection can only have an effect when working on individuals that can still reproduce and inherit their anomalies, it also proves that the next anticipator, Patrick Matthew, did not coin the term "natural selection." This is important with respect to some people who claim that Darwin plagiarized Matthew based mainly on such logomachy.
"competing amongst themselves for protracted longevity, to the exclusion of all the rest. Indeed, this natural selection of particular lives, out of a very considerable mass, repeatedly occurs among centenaries, at later periods, and according to their respective degrees of constitutional vigour; so that very little difference may appear in the probabilities of living one more year, between two individuals of whom the ages differed even to the extent of twenty years." (Corbaux 1829, p. 201)
Patrick Matthew 1831. ("On Naval Timber and Arboriculture." Edinburgh: Adam Black, Edinburgh). On my closer reading of Matthew (1831), I noticed that various scattered passages in the main text have been informed by his idea of natural selection with heritable variation. Some of these occur in Part IVcalled Notice of Authors who treat of Arboriculture, in which Matthew reviewed works of other scholars on arboriculture. That is, Matthew (1831) would head a chapter reviewing a certain scholar by, for example, The Forester's Guide, by Mr. Monteath. The running head throughout that chapter would alternate between Notice of Authors and Monteath's Forster's Guide on every other page. From my perusal, I got away with the impression that selection was a household term in the trade of tree breeding, as much as it used to be among breeders of any other kind of organism. As is well known, Darwin consulted many breeders during his years of incubating The Origin
There is a universal law in nature, tending to render every reproductive being the best suited to its condition that its kind, or that organized matter, is susceptible of, which appears intended to model the physical and mental or instinctive powers, to their highest perfection, and to continue them so. This law sustains the lion in his strength, the hare in her swiftness, and the fox in his wiles. As nature in all her modifications of life, has a power to increase far beyond what is needed to supply the place of what falls by Time's decay, those individuals who possess not the requisite strength, swiftness, hardihood, or cunning, fall prematurely without reproducing--either a prey to their natural devourers, or sinking uner disease, generally induced by want of nourishment, their place being occupied by the more perfect of their own kind, who pressing on the means of subsistenece."
Charles Lyell 1832. Although Lyell's Principles of Geology are usually taken to be on geology only, volume 2 is a book on biology rather than geology. For example, chapter 2 summarizes and dismissed Lamarck's theory of species transmutation. However, Lyell also mentioned the "struggle for existence" verbatim at the pages 55-56:
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Edward Blyth 1835. An Attempt to classify the "Varieties" of Animals, with Observations on the marked Seasonal and other Changes which naturally take place in various British Species, and which do not constitute Varieties. (The Magazine of Natural History 8: 40-46).
and the stronger must always prevail over the weaker
so that all the young which are produced must have had their origin from one which possessed the maximum of power and physical strength; and which, consequently, in the struggle for existence, was the best able to maintain his ground, and defend himself from every enemy. In like manner, among animals which procure their food by means of their agility, strength, or delicacy of sense, the one best organised must always obtain the greatest quantity; and must, therefore, become physically the strongest, and be thus enabled, by routing its opponents, to transmit its superior qualities to a greater number of offspring.
Fennel 1836. James H. Fennel replied to Blyth's above quoted article in the Short Communicationssection of the same journal. While he did not repeat the principle of natural selection, he contradicted Blyth on the fixity of species (Magazine of Natural History 9: 647-648). Remembering that Darwin owned these volumes and scrutinized them carefully, it is clear that he put the pieces of a huge puzzle into place rather than creating the pieces of the puzzle from scratch.
Charles Naudin 1852. Published a highly important article in the Revue Horticole, that is unjustly forgotten. He anticipated much more than merely the principle of natural selection, for example, the tree-of-life metaphor (see here and here for further
We do not think that Nature has made its species in a different fashion from that in which we proceed ourselves in order to make our varieties; or better, we carried it's [Nature's] process into our practice." (p. 104)
"Such is, in our ideas, the course followed by nature; like us, it wanted to form races
appropriate for their needs; and with a relatively small number of primordial kinds, she gave birth in succession and at various times, to all plant and animal species that inhabitthe globe." (p. 104)
"Nature has operated on an immense scale and with immense resources; we, on the contrary, we do so with extremely limited means; but between its processes and ours,between his results and those we get, the difference is in any amount; between itsspecies and those we create, there are only the more and less."
Herbert Spencer 1852. ("A theory of population, deduced from the general law of animal fertility." Westminster Review 57: 468-501):
Nature secures each step in advance by a succession of trials, which are perpetually repeated, and cannot fail to be repeated, until success is achievedКомментарий
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Поскольку Рухленко с нами уже нет, к сожалению, отвечать за него придётся вам.Интервью с Дробышевским я видел и даже прокомментировал.
Давно хотел почитать аккаунт Рухленко и сегодня решился - В ПОИСКАХ ЭВОЛЮЦИИ LiveJournal
В нём есть тэг - Дробышевский.
В общем, данный субъект покрутил-повертел ископаемые кости от стопы ардипитека, увидел у неё своды и признаки прямохождения. Профессиональной деформацией такое не назовешь, это уже патология.
Итак, что вы скажете по поводу os peroneum?
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На фоне местных крецов эта девушка выглядит достойно. Вот я и подумала, что ей не составит труда заглянуть в учебник. Ошиблась.
Везде? Ну плесень - понятно, а всякие поганки и прочие подберёзовики? Надо почитать про ареал грибов.Грибы есть везде, просто их считали растениями.
В любом случае - это косяк писавших Писание))Марсиане мои друзьяКомментарий
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Я не биолог, Эльф. Обращаться за помощью надо к профессионалам. Ну как при заболевшем зубе вы обратитесь к стоматологу, а не к соседу газонокосильщику. Верно?
Но вам, как соотечественнику моего на теперешний момент любимого Джеймса Франко, посоветую курс от Александра Маркова: Видео лекций биофака МГУ "Теория эволюции" А. МарковМарсиане мои друзьяКомментарий
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