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Думаю, истина неизменна, но возможно я долгое время своей жизни ошибался. Поэтому прошу подтвердить Библией то, что библейские истины не что-то застывшее или, как вы говорите, "дубовое". В противном случае ваш предыдущий пост будет расценен как флуд.
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Новое в правилах форума?Это сообщение было удалено JURINIS. Причина: Запрещается публикации неточного материалаКомментарий
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Почему новое? Старое. Вот это правило более расширенно и для других случаев:
"Запрещается использование форума для публикации заведомо ложной информации,любого материала, который является сознательно ложным и/или дискредитирующим, неточным, оскорбительным, вульгарным, несущим ненависть, сексуально ориентированным или являющимся нарушением любого закона."Комментарий
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Вся Библия подтверждает мои слова. Простой всем известный пример - был Ветхий Завет "на века", но Истина проявила Себя иначе и стал Новый Завет, с чем были несогласны косные иудеи, которые стали банить Христиан (гнать Церковь). ВОт вам ясный довод. Аминь. Бог Свидетель. Ваше же сообщение расценено мною как флуд и троллинг, вы никак не смиритесь, что я прав и подобно Христу, уничтожаю закостенелую религиозность буквы. Вы слишком спешите расценить мои сообщения как флуд ... уже не в первый раз и мне это начинает не нравиться.
Я уже не раз просил вас не флудить, не превращать тему в жёсткое средневековье - я давал вам адрес моей темы, в которой можно свободно обсудить вопросы :http://www.evangelie.ru/forum/t90876.html .. но вы стремитесь здесь перейти на мою личность, объявить мои посты флудом, я вам этого не позволю, докажите свои слова разумнымит примерами, а не приступами "праведного гнева".
Кроме того, учтите, что я не круглосуточно здесь нахожусь, потому такие мелочи, как ваши посты, могу и не заметить, ибо я стремлюсь высказываться по теме ... так что манеру угроз - оставьте.
ЕСЛИ хотите что то выяснить для себя - то спрашивайте меня в личке, а не устраивайте выступления напоказ.
Имейте уважение к человеку, который духовно опытен и в вере был больше вас.
Мир вам!Последний раз редактировалось Второисайя; 08 April 2012, 04:53 AM.Комментарий
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Я являюсь членом Церкви Иисуса Христа Святых последних дней.
Для того, чтобы попасть в РАЙ одной религии, нужно попасть в АД всех остальных (шутка;) ).Комментарий
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Похоже, что Вы не совсем внимательно прочитали предложенную информацию.
Тем более, что словосочетание גְּאֻלַּת דָּם, геуллат дам - можно перевести как "кровавая месть" и как "искупление кровью". Я специально взял нейтральный текст, чтобы показать, что Бринам Янг озвучивал не совсем уж и пустые истины.
Я просто предложу Вам ещё раз перечитать Пятикнижие, где Вы своими глазами увидите, какие грехи можно было искупить посредством жертвоприношения в Храме, а какие карались только смертью.Искупление происходило в Скинии/Храме посредством совершения жертвоприношений и ходатайственных молитв Первосвященника...Я являюсь членом Церкви Иисуса Христа Святых последних дней.
Для того, чтобы попасть в РАЙ одной религии, нужно попасть в АД всех остальных (шутка;) ).Комментарий
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Я не делаю богословских выводов опираясь на Еврейскую Энциклопедию. Не нужно забывать, что ветхозаветный Израиль был теократическим государством, поэтому все решения, принимавшиеся духовной и светской властью, основывались (должны были основываться) на Торе. Смертная казнь была просто смертной казнью, предписанной за совершение тяжких преступлений. Она никакого отношения к искуплению казненного не имела, а имела характер устрашения потенциальных преступников и поддержания порядка в государстве. Если мы и говорим об "искуплении кровью", то только в смысле того, что кровь преступника искупала его вину перед потерпевшими, но никак не влияла на вечные последствия для казненного. Теория Янга о кровожадном Иегове низводит на нет ценность Крови Христа, поскольку искупление возможно только Его Кровью. В ВЗ прообразом Крови Христа служили жертвенные животные, символически искупавшие грехи людей. Вы просто должны провести различие между уголовным наказанием и духовным искуплениемКомментарий
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Вот история изначальной Церкви Христа
A Brief History of the Church of Christ
The Original Church
The Church of Christ traces its history back to the original organization that was established by Jesus Christ in the first century AD. That original Church had Jesus Christ as its head and twelve Apostles that had the oversight of the Church organization on the earth. The ancient New Testament Church taught the pure, simple gospel of Christ. This included faith in Christ as our Savior, repentance from sins, baptism by immersion, laying on of hands for the reception of the Holy Ghost, for the healing of the sick, for the blessing of children, and for ordination to the ministry, resurrection of the dead and an eternal judgment according to our works in this life (Hebrews 6:1-2). The ministry in the ancient New Testament Church was called by Divine revelation (Hebrews 5:4) and was not paid a salary by the church, but labored in various trades to support themselves (Acts 20:33-35). The original Church grew and continued under the authority of the ministry and the doctrines taught originally by Jesus Christ. There was to be only twelve Apostles at any given time in history, therefore as the original Apostles died, others were called by God to serve as Apostles in their place (Acts 13:1-3, 14:14).
A Falling Away / Apostasy
Unfortunately, over time ideas and doctrines were introduced into the Church by men instead of relying upon the established doctrine of Jesus Christ. These included the consolidation of authority into one man (the bishop) and alternative modes of baptism. These and other doctrines continued and grew until there was a complete falling away or apostasy from the pure gospel of Christ (see 2nd Thess. 2:1-4). The apostasy was complete in 570 AD when the Lombard invaders destroyed the last vestige of the Roman Empire and allowed the rise of the power of the Bishop of Rome, the Pope. The result was the removal by God of the authority of the priesthood and the world entered into a period that is called the Dark Ages, spiritually if not physically.
During this long period there was not found upon the earth a church which stood in the true order and power of the original church of Christ (Amos 8:11-12). While there were good people in every church, they did not convert those churches into churches of Christ any more than a few flakes of gold in a mountain would convert it into a mountain of gold. There were efforts to reform the church with some degree of success, but none of these restored the original doctrines and organization of the New Testament Church. What was required was a complete restoration of these things along with the authority of the priesthood.
How did the Restoration come about?
This restoration occurred in 1829-1830. This time was the fulfillment of the 1260 yrs of apostasy prophesied by John (Rev 12:6, 14 and 13:5, note: in prophetic terms, days are given for years, i.e. 1260 days = 1260 years) and Daniel (Daniel 7:25). It was also the time when the image spoken of in Daniel chapter 2 stood in its completeness, with all the nations represented in existence at the same time. An angel sent from God revealed to Joseph Smith, Jr. the location of an ancient record which contained the history of Gods working with the inhabitants of the American continent, and he was given the ability to translate that record. This record became known as the Book of Mormon. While translating the record, the holy priesthood was imparted by an angel upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. The Church of Christ was organized according to a commandment from God on April 6, 1830. Thus the restoration of the Church was accompanied by the miraculous appearing of angels, the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon as an added witness to the truth of the Gospel, and the restoration on earth of the authority of the priesthood in the human ministers of Jesus Christ.
False Doctrines Again
The Church of Christ grew rapidly as the gospel was spread and was accompanied by the power of the Holy Ghost and with miracles. Unfortunately the devil was also hard at work at this time, trying to destroy the Church from without and within. The tempter used the same lies, appeals to pride and temptations of power that had worked in the past and in short order there were ideas and doctrines introduced which were not a part of the Gospel of Christ. Some of these ideas and doctrines caused the Church a great deal of difficulty and divisions. Some members of the Church were confused because they knew the truth of the Gospel; but confused by the new doctrines introduced by ministers they trusted, that were not found in the Bible or Book of Mormon. These doctrines included the consolidation of power into the hands of one man as Prophet (not unlike the Pope) the offices of a High Priest and a First Presidency, the practice of baptism for the dead, the belief in a changeable God and the mysticism of Free Masonry. The name of the Church had even been changed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Persecution of the Church
The Church had been directed by God to go to Independence, Missouri, as a headquarters and a gathering place for a New Jerusalem with a Temple to be built in the future. Many members made the journey to Independence and the Church continued to grow; however in a short time the members were violently driven out of Independence, and eventually all of Missouri (they were ordered to be exterminated by the Governor of Missouri). This was likely a result of the pride of some members of the Church. God would not allow the Church as it was to remain in a place that He had set aside for a special purpose. This pride and the persecution by unbelievers caused the members of the Church to suffer great trials, but the humble followers held on to the truth of the Gospel that they knew. After being forced out of Missouri, the Church went to Illinois and built the city of Nauvoo.
Divisions at Joseph Smiths Death
At the death of Joseph Smith, Jr. the Church was cast into disarray. When the Church was first organized in 1830, God had directed that there should be 12 Apostles called to have the oversight of the Church, just as in New Testament times. Instead, Joseph Smith had allowed himself to be set up as the head of the Church and as a result, when he was removed there were many who vied for the leadership of the Church. The Church was split into a large number of factions each with someone claiming to be the rightful successor. One group went west with Brigham Young. After their journey they were all re-baptized and their ministers were re-ordained as if into a different church. Others followed different leaders to Pennsylvania or to Michigan or to other places.
Renewal of the Original Teachings / Removal of False Doctrines
In rural Illinois, there were four congregations which didnt join any of the different factions but continued to function as local churches and humbly sought the truth and to know Gods will. These congregations were far from the big city of Nauvoo where most of the Churchs leaders were and were therefore not as affected by those events. These congregations were perturbed by the incorrect practices found in some of the divisions of the Church. In the spring of 1853 these congregations joined in a conference and vowed to continue in the original teachings of the Church of Christ. Many of the members had been baptized during the first days of the Restoration and the ministers had received their authority from Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith, Jr., and some of the first ministers of the Church.
In the several conferences conducted during the years 1857, 1858, and 1859, these congregations spoke out strongly against many of the errors that had previously entered into the Church. They were adamantly opposed to 1) polygamy, 2) baptism for the dead, 3) lineal priesthood (a presidency passed from father to son) 4) celestial marriage and other false doctrines. In the conference of 1860, this group again took the name of the Church of Christ, and after receiving a revelation from God in 1864, returned to Independence, Missouri in 1867, where its headquarters has remained ever since.
Throughout the years since the death of Joseph Smith, Jr., the Church of Christ has been the only church that has made a consistent effort to follow, point by point, the original organization and doctrine which was instituted by Jesus Christ in the ancient New Testament church and restored by God in 1830. The Church Of Christ is organized with Jesus Christ as its head and twelve Apostles that have the oversight of the Church on the earth. The principles of the Gospel of the Church of Christ remain the same; faith in Christ as our Savior, repentance from sins, baptism by immersion, laying on of hands for the reception of the Holy Ghost, for the healing of the sick, for the blessing of children, and for ordination to the ministry, resurrection of the dead and an eternal judgment according to our works in this life, and are in harmony with the Bible and Book of Mormon. Each member of the ministry of the Church of Christ has been called by Divine revelation, and does not receive a salary from the Church, but labors in various occupations to support themselves and their families. For this reason we do not see ourselves as a faction of the original; we are the remnant of that original Church restored by the power, and according to the prophecy of God. We believe that the word of God is contained in the authorized King James translation of the Bible published in 1611 in England, insofar as it is translated correctly, with all other versions or translations left to stand on their own merit and the 1990 Independence edition of the Book of Mormon which is the nearest available to the original Palmyra edition.
Church of ChristКомментарий
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А вот во что верили изначальные мормоны
Basic Beliefs
Articles of Faith and Practice
1. We believe in God the Eternal Father, who only is Supreme; Creator of the universe; Ruler and Judge of all; unchangeable and without respect of persons.
(Isa 45:15-21; Mal 3:6; Rev 20:11-13; Mi 8:19)
2. We believe in Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, the manifestation of God in flesh, who lived, suffered, and died for all mankind; whom we own as our only Leader, Witness and Commander.
(John 5:19-24; Heb 1:1-14; Al 9:54-55; 3 Ne 4:44-49)
3. We believe in the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, which searcheth the deep things of God, brings to our minds things which are past, reveals things to come, and is the medium by which we receive the revelation of Jesus Christ.
(John 14:15-18, 26, 15:26, 16:13; Mi 10:3-7)
4. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression, and that as a consequence of the atonement of Christ "all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all they that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, can not repent; and unto such, baptism availeth nothing."
(Mi 8:25-26) (Rom 2:6, 12, 13; Mos 1:107; Mi 8:25-26)
5. We believe that through the atonement of Christ all men may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel; viz. : Faith in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ; Repentance and Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; Laying on of Hands for: (a) Ordination; (b) Blessing of Children; (c) Confirmation and the Gift of the Holy Ghost; (d) Healing of the Sick.
(John 3:16-17; Hel 5:69-72, 6:1-2; 2 Ne 13:12-17; Mi 8:29; (a) Acts 13:1-3; Mi 3:1-3; (b) Mark 10:13-16; 3 Ne 8:20-27; (c) Acts 8:14-17; Mi 2:1-3; (d) Mark 16:17-18; Jas 5:14-16)
6. We believe in the literal second coming and millenial reign of Jesus Christ; in the resurrection of the Dead, and in Eternal Judgment; that men will be rewarded or punished according to the good or evil they may have done.
(Mat 16:27; Rev 20 : 1-6, 12-15, 22: 12; 1 Ne 7:55-62; 2 Ne 12:87-99; A 19:66-69)
7. We believe in the powers and gifts of the everlasting Gospel; viz. : The word of wisdom; the word of knowledge; the gift of faith; the gift of healing; working of miracles; prophecy; discerning of spirits; divers kinds of tongues; interpretation of tongues.
(Acts 2:4-11; I Cor 12:1-11; Mi 10:8-14, 18)
8. We believe the fruit of the spirit to be love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. (Gal 5:22-23) We believe that in the Bible is contained the word of God, that the Book of Mormon is an added witness for Christ, and that these contain the "fullness of the gospel."
(BC 44:13) (Ezek 37:15-20; 1 Ne 3:157-166, 191-196)
9. We believe in the principle of continuous revelation; that the canon of scripture is not full, that God inspires men in every age and among all people, and that He speaks when, where, and through whom He may choose.
(Amos 3: 7; Acts 2: 17-18; 2 Pet 1 : 21 ; 1 Ne 1:82-83)
10. We believe that where there are six or more regularly baptized members, one of whom is an elder, there the Church exists with full power of church extension when acting in harmony with the law of God.
(Acts 14:23; Outline Hist p. 35; Ref Bill #1, 1960)
11. We believe that a man must be called of God by revelation, and ordained by those having authority, to enable him to preach the gospel and administer the ordinances thereof.
(Luke 6:12-16; John 3:27; Acts 13:1-4; Rom 10:15; Heb 5:4)
12. We believe in the same church organization as existed in the time of Christ and His Apostles. The highest office in the church is that of an apostle, of whom there are twelve, who constitute special witnesses for Jesus Christ. They have the missionary supervision and the general watchcare of all of the churches.
(1 Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11-16; 1 Ne 3:115)
13. The primary function of the general church, of which each local church is a component part, is missionary and the building up and extension of the Kingdom of God in all the world.
(Mat 24:14; Mark 16:15-18)
14. We believe that local churches should govern their own affairs, and that general church officials should not dominate or interfere therewith. On invitation such general officers may, with propriety, give counsel and assistance. Local congregations are subject to the Articles of Faith and Practice and must be governed thereby.
(Ref Bill #2, 1935, par 3-8)
15. We believe the Church of Christ comprehends the true brotherhood of man where each esteems his brother as himself and wherein the divine command to "love your neighbor as yourself" is demonstrated by the prevalence of social equality.
(Mat 22:36-40; Gal 5:14; 1 John 4:7-21; Mos 1:48-49; 3 Ne 12:11)
16. We believe that all men are stewards of their worldly possessions and goods and answerable to God both for how they are used and the manner in which they are secured. We believe that all men are also stewards of their time and talents and are accountable to God for how they are used. We are to pay tithes and offerings to the Church as required by God with the promise of His blessings. We define tithes as 1/10th of our increase. Offerings are donations above and beyond tithes. These tithes and offerings are to be used for the building up of the Kingdom of God in all nations, bringing all people to Jesus Christ through Baptism.
(Mark 12:41-44; Malachi 3:8-12; Genesis 28:20-22; Genesis 14:20; Hebrews 7:4-6; Acts 10:1-4; 3rd Nephi 11:11-15; Mosiah 2:37, 42-44; Matthew 28:18-20; Jacob 2:22-24; Alma 10:8; Deuteronomy 14:22)
17. We believe that all men are stewards under God and answerable to Him not only for the distribution of accumulated wealth, but for the manner in which such wealth is secured. The primary purpose of stewardship is not the increase of church of revenue or the mere contribution of money by those who have to those who have not, but to bring men to a realization of the common fatherhood of God, and the universal brotherhood of man in all the affairs and expressions of life, and to maintain such social adjustment that each may enjoy the bounty and gifts of God, and be free to exercise his talents and ability to enrich the life of all.
(Luke 12:42-46; Rom 14:17-19; 1 Pet 4:10; Jb 2:22-24)
18. We believe that men should labor for their own support and that of their dependents. Ministers of the gospel are not absolved from this responsibility, but when chosen or appointed by the church to devote their entire time to missionary work, their families are to be provided for out of the general church funds. The admonition of Christ that the ministry should not provide purse or scrip for their journey, but go trusting in God and the people is applicable.
(Mat 10:9-10; Luke 22:35-36; 1 Cor 9:16-18; 1 Pet 5:2-3; Mos 9:59-62)
19. We believe that the temporal affairs of the general church are to be administered by the general bishopric under the direction of the general conferences of the church and under the supervision of the Council of Twelve. The temporal affairs of the local churches shall be administered by local bishops under the supervision and direction of the local congregations.
(Acts 6:2-6; Ref Bill #3, 1931)
20. We believe in the sanctity of marriage as established by the Lord in the beginning as being a union between one man and one woman. Any other type of relationship such as homosexuality, polygamy, multiplicity of marriages, common-law marriage and cohabiting are not sanctioned by God and are disharmonious with the plan for His creation. In case of a breach of this covenant by adultery (fornication), the innocent one may remarry
(Mark 10:6-9; Mat 5:31-32, 19: 3-9; 1 Cor. 7:10-11; 3 Nephi 5:80)
21. We are opposed to war. Men are not justified in taking up arms against their fellows except as a last resort in defense of their lives and to preserve their liberty.
(Al 20:47-52)
22. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel, and in the restoration of the ten lost tribes.
(Is 11:11-12; Jer 16:14-16, 31:10-12; Ezek 36:21-28; 3 Ne 10:1-7)
23. We believe a temple will be built in this generation, in Independence, Missouri, wherein Christ will reveal himself and endow his servants whom he chooses with power to preach the gospel in all the world to every kindred, tongue and people, that the promises of God to Israel may be fulfilled.
(Mic 4:1-2; Mal 3:1-4; 3 Ne 10:4; Eth 6:8)
24. We believe that a New Jerusalem shall be built upon this land "unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph. . . " ". . . which city shall be built, beginning at the Temple Lot."
(3 Ne 9:57-59, 10:1-4; Eth 6:6-8; Revelation to Joseph Smith given Sept, 22 & 23, 1832)
25. We believe that ministry and membership should abstain from the use of tobacco, intoxicating liquors and narcotics, and should not affiliate with any society which administers oaths or covenants in conflict with the law of God, or which interferes with their duties as free men and citizens.
(1 Cor 3:16-17; Eth 3:86-98)
Комментарий
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Вам, как адвокату, непростительны такие ляпы. Вы по долгу службы обязаны изучать документы. Так вот, символы веры, которые Вы привели и ссылка на них, принадлежат Церкви Христа, которая ни малейшего отношения не имеет к Церкви Иисуса Христа Святых последних дней. Возможно, что они себя сами и называют "мормонами, возможно, что и их так-же называют "мормонами", но для обсуждения этих символов, веры Вам нужно предъявлять претензии или вести дискуссии с господином Раджабом. Это находится в его "юрисдикции".Я являюсь членом Церкви Иисуса Христа Святых последних дней.
Для того, чтобы попасть в РАЙ одной религии, нужно попасть в АД всех остальных (шутка;) ).Комментарий
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Я являюсь членом Церкви Иисуса Христа Святых последних дней.
Для того, чтобы попасть в РАЙ одной религии, нужно попасть в АД всех остальных (шутка;) ).Комментарий
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Вас никто не просит делать богословские выводы опираясь на Еврейскую Энциклопедию. Эта Энциклопедия - просто источник информации из истории иудаизма, которая даёт ссылки на стихи из Библии.
Какой бы строй не существовал в ветхозаветном Израиле, этот строй и законы - были даны Богом Свему избранному народу и все они прописаны в Библии. Всё, что было дано Богом и прописано в Библии, не может иметь статус "просто". Раз Бог повелевал за определённые грехи карать смертью, а так-же предписывал кровавую месть, то это имело какую-то цель в Его глазах. Мне вот интересно узнать, откуда Вы берёте такую уверенность, что кровь преступника искупала его вину перед потерпевшими, но никак не влияла на вечные последствия для казненного? Ведь этот способ казни имеет духовную подоплёку и прописан Бого через Пророков в Библии. Или Вы разделяете Слово Бога на то, что имеет духовную подоплёку и на то, что не имеет? Или вся Библия не есть Слово Бога?
Теория Янга, так и остаётся быть теорией Янга. Она никогда не была доктриной Церкви. Но если эта теория имеет подтверждения в Библейских текстах, то она имеет право на существование.Теория Янга о кровожадном Иегове низводит на нет ценность Крови Христа, поскольку искупление возможно только Его Кровью. В ВЗ прообразом Крови Христа служили жертвенные животные, символически искупавшие грехи людей. Вы просто должны провести различие между уголовным наказанием и духовным искуплением
Прообразом Крови Христа служила лишь кровь пасхального ягнёнка, ибо Пасха наша Христос, заклан за нас.
Если, так называемое Вами, уголовное наказание в ветхозаветные времена приводилось в исполнение, то само это наказание было основано и обусловленно духовными законами прописанными в Писаниях. Другого правового и уголовного права и законов в ветхозаветные времена не существовало. Эти законы были прописаны Самим Богом Иеговой.
Теория Янга о кровожадном Иегове (это Ваши слова) построена исключительно на Библии. Если Вас смущает кровожадность Иеговы, то Вам, как-то надо исключить Ветхий Завет из состава Библии и лишить его статуса "Слово Бога".Я являюсь членом Церкви Иисуса Христа Святых последних дней.
Для того, чтобы попасть в РАЙ одной религии, нужно попасть в АД всех остальных (шутка;) ).Комментарий
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Во-первых, я не адвокат, а юрист на предприятии. Во-вторых, я и без Ваших ЦУ знаю, что я должен изучать, а что не должен. Вы абсолютно правы в одном: символы веры, приведенные мной, действительно не имеют никакого отношения к ЦИХСПД. Они имеют отношение к Церкви Христа, от которой в результате подковерных интриг и борьбы за власть впоследствии отпочковалась ЦИХСПД. Почему я должен предЪявлять какие-то претензии г-ну Раджабу, я совсем не понимаю. Мне кажется, что Вы большой любитель указывать людям, что они должны/не должны делать. Это признак моветона...
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