Чтобы вас убедило в существовании бога?

Свернуть
X
 
  • Время
  • Показать
Очистить всё
новые сообщения
  • Гуманист
    Завсегдатай

    • 16 July 2007
    • 861

    #766
    Сообщение от .Аlex.
    С этого момента поподробнее
    Почитайте хотя бы википедия о плащанице на английском языке. Там описано несколько способов изготовления плащаницы.

    И еще... не забудьте, что плащаница - именно ВАШЕ доказательство. Вот и доказывайте...
    "Мир - это моя страна, все люди - мои братья, а моя религия - делать добро". - Томас Пейн

    Комментарий

    • .Аlex.
      Отключен

      • 12 November 2007
      • 15318

      #767
      Сообщение от Гуманист
      Библия - книга большая, и если очень захотеть, там можно найти всё, что угодно. Автор прыгает по всей Библии, чтобы оправдать совершенно очевидные расхождения между повестнованием Евангелия и плащаницей. Я не доверяю ни одному слову автора.
      Вы можете говорить предметно?

      Комментарий

      • .Аlex.
        Отключен

        • 12 November 2007
        • 15318

        #768
        Сообщение от Гуманист
        Джон Джексон - не эксперт. Более того, он является заинтересованой стороной и уже давно получает деньги от Католической церкви.
        А ваше хомвидео это мнение экспертов?

        Комментарий

        • .Аlex.
          Отключен

          • 12 November 2007
          • 15318

          #769
          Сообщение от Гуманист
          Почитайте хотя бы википедия о плащанице на английском языке. Там описано несколько способов изготовления плащаницы.

          И еще... не забудьте, что плащаница - именно ВАШЕ доказательство. Вот и доказывайте...
          Так, Вы или давайте свои несколько способов или... сами понимаете

          Комментарий

          • Snow Leopard
            Атеист

            • 13 December 2007
            • 2886

            #770
            Сообщение от .Аlex.
            Snow Leopard;1197246]
            Сходите в библиотеку или в университет. Там вам все расскажут.
            Википедия безмолвствует?
            нет


            Сообщение от .Аlex.
            Одновременно получить и изображение и отпечаток искусстенным способом невозожно. Про видео Игоряна можно добавить, что "по оценкам д-ра Джексона, механизм образования изображения должен удовлетворять следующему требованию или критерию. На расстоянии в 1.1 см от поверхности тела должен создаваться образ, на котором, как на Плащанице, различались бы столь мелкие детали как очертания губ. Таким образом, нас интересуют расстояния до 1.2 см между Плащаницей и телом."
            не понял, что за критерий такой?

            Комментарий

            • Гуманист
              Завсегдатай

              • 16 July 2007
              • 861

              #771
              Сообщение от .Аlex.
              А ваше хомвидео это мнение экспертов?
              Не забывайте. Доказываете всё ВЫ. Подавайте мнение независимых экспертов. Никаких больше ссылок на Джекона, который делает на плазанице бабло. За такое бабло любой бы что угодно наговорил.
              "Мир - это моя страна, все люди - мои братья, а моя религия - делать добро". - Томас Пейн

              Комментарий

              • Гуманист
                Завсегдатай

                • 16 July 2007
                • 861

                #772
                Сообщение от .Аlex.
                Так, Вы или давайте свои несколько способов или... сами понимаете
                Maillard reaction hypothesis

                Phase contrast microscopic view of image-bearing fiber from the Shroud of Turin. Carbohydrate layer is visible along top edge. The lower-right edge shows that coating is missing. The coating can be scraped off or removed with adhesive or diimide.


                The Maillard reaction is a form of non-enzymatic browning involving an amino acid and a reducing sugar. The cellulose fibers of the shroud are coated with a thin carbohydrate layer of starch fractions, various sugars, and other impurities.[citation needed] In a paper entitled "The Shroud of Turin: an amino-carbonyl reaction may explain the image formation,"[21] R.N. Rogers and A. Arnoldi propose that amines from a recently deceased human body may have undergone Maillard reactions with this carbohydrate layer within a reasonable period of time, before liquid decomposition products stained or damaged the cloth. The gases produced by a dead body are extremely reactive chemically and within a few hours, in an environment such as a tomb, a body starts to produce heavier amines in its tissues such as putrescine and cadaverine. This raises questions, however, as to why the images (both ventral and dorsal views) are so photorealistic,[citation needed] and why they were not destroyed by later decomposition products. Removal of the cloth from the body within a short enough time frame would prevent exposure to these later decomposition products. It is worth noting, however, that the Maillard reaction is ordinarily observed as the browned parts of cooked foods, especially in broiled, grilled, or fried dishes, in which cases, the most superficial portions are subjected to high temperature (310 Fahrenheit/155 Celcius), low moisture conditions.

                Auto-oxidation

                Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas (1997) claim that the image on the shroud is that of Jacques de Molay, the last Grand Master of the Order of the Knights Templar, arrested for heresy at the Paris Temple by Philip IV of France on 13 October 1307. De Molay suffered torture under the auspices of the Chief Inquisitor of France, William Imbert. His arms and legs were nailed, possibly to a large wooden door. According to Knight and Lomas, after the torture De Molay was laid on a piece of cloth on a soft bed; the excess section of the cloth was lifted over his head to cover his front and he was left, perhaps in a coma, for perhaps 30 hours. They claim that the use of a shroud is explained by the Paris Temple keeping shrouds for ceremonial purposes.
                De Molay survived the torture but was burned at the stake on 19 March 1314 together with Geoffroy de Charney, Templar preceptor of Normandy. De Charney's grandson was Jean de Charney who died at the battle of Poitiers. After his death, his widow, Jeanne de Vergy, purportedly found the shroud in his possession and had it displayed at a church in Lirey.
                Knight and Lomas base their argument partly on the 1988 radiocarbon dating and Mills' 1995 research about a chemical reaction called auto-oxidation and they claim that their theory accords with the factors known about the creation of the shroud and the carbon dating results. The counter argument is that the Templars acquired the shroud upon one of the crusades and brought it to France where it remained a secret until Jean de Charney died.

                Photographic image production

                Some suggest that there is a strong resemblance between this purported self-portrait of Leonardo da Vinci and the Man of the Shroud.


                Skeptics have proposed many means for producing the image in the Middle Ages. Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince (1994) proposed that the shroud is perhaps the first ever example of photography, showing the portrait of its purported maker, Leonardo da Vinci. According to this hypothesis, the image was made with the aid of a "magic lantern," a simple projecting device, or by means of a camera obscura and light-sensitive silver compounds applied to the cloth.
                Although Leonardo was born a century after the first documented appearance of the cloth, supporters of this hypothesis propose that the original cloth was an inferior fake, which was replaced with a superior hoax created by Leonardo. However, no contemporaneous reports indicate a sudden change in the quality of the image. The Turin Library holds a drawing of an old man that is widely but not universally accepted as a self-portrait by Leonardo. As the image depicts a man with a prominent brow and cheekbones and a beard, some consider that it resembles the image on the Shroud and have suggested that as part of a complex hoax, Leonardo may have placed his own portrait on the Shroud as the face of Jesus. There is however, no mention of this supposed resemblance in any known contemporary account, nor any reference to a connection between the Shroud and Leonardo.
                There is also conjecture that he was commissioned by the royal family of Turin, with whom he was friends, to create a work which could return to Turin that which had been lost for so many years. Such notions, however, are conjectural and are not taken seriously by most academic scholars.

                Painting

                In 1977, a team of scientists selected by the Holy Shroud Guild developed a program of tests to conduct on the Shroud, designated the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP). Anastasio Cardinal Ballestrero, the archbishop of Turin, granted permission, despite disagreement within the Church. The STURP scientists conducted their testing over five days in 1978. Walter McCrone, a member of the team, upon analyzing the samples he had, concluded in 1979 that the image is actually made up of billions of submicrometre pigment particles.[22] The only fibrils that had been made available for testing of the stains were those that remained affixed to custom-designed adhesive tape applied to thirty-two different sections of the image. (This was done in order to avoid damaging the cloth.) According to McCrone, the pigments used were a combination of red ochre and vermillion tempera paint. The Electron Optics Group of McCrone Associates published the results of these studies in five articles in peer-reviewed journals: Microscope 1980, 28, 105, 115; 1981, 29, 19; Wiener Berichte uber Naturwissenschaft in der Kunst 1987/1988, 4/5, 50 and Acc. Chem. Res. 1990, 23, 7783. STURP, upon learning of his findings, confiscated McCrone's samples, and brought in other scientists to replace him. In McCrone's words, he was "drummed out" of STURP and continued to defend the analysis he had performed, becoming a prominent proponent of the position that the Shroud is a forgery. As of 2004, no other scientists have been able to confirm or refute McCrone's results with independent experiments, simply because the Vatican refuses to cooperate.
                Dr. John Heller and Dr. Alan Adler, the scientists whom STURP asked for a second opinion after McCrone's, examined the same samples as McCrone researched. They confirmed McCrone's result that the cloth contains iron oxide. However, they concluded, both due to the exceptional purity of the chemical and due to comparisons with other ancient textiles which showed that retting flax draws in iron, that the iron was not the source of the body image.[23] McCrone's response to their analysis has been vehement and negative.[24]
                Other microscopic analysis of the fibers seems to indicate that the image is strictly limited to the carbohydrate layer, with no additional layer of pigment visible. Proponents of the position that the Shroud is authentic say that no known technique for hand application of paint could apply a pigment with the necessary degree of control on such a nano-scale fibrillar surface plane. Moreover, they claim the technical skill required to produce the photographic or near-photograpic realism in the image on the Shroud would be impressive in any century, much less the twelfth or thirteenth.[25] However, Renaissance painters have produced a number of photorealistic artworks.[26]
                In the television program "Decoding The Past: The Shroud of Turin," The History Channel reported the official finding of STURP that no pigments were found in the shroud image and multiple scientists asserted this conclusion on camera. No hint of controversy over this claim was suggested. The program stated that a NASA scientist organized STURP in 1976 (after being surprised to find depth-dimensional information encoded within the shroud image); no mention of the Holy Shroud Guild was made.
                "Мир - это моя страна, все люди - мои братья, а моя религия - делать добро". - Томас Пейн

                Комментарий

                • Гуманист
                  Завсегдатай

                  • 16 July 2007
                  • 861

                  #773
                  Сообщение от .Аlex.
                  Так, Вы или давайте свои несколько способов или... сами понимаете
                  Solar masking, or "shadow theory"

                  In March 2005, N.D. Wilson, a literature instructor at New Saint Andrews College and amateur sindonologist, announced in an informal article in Books and Culture magazine that, inspired by an idea from G.K. Chesterton's Father Brown stories, he had made a near duplicate of the shroud image by exposing dark linen to the sun for ten days under a sheet of glass on which a positive face mask had been painted. The sun bleached white all of the dark linen except for the areas under the painted glass image, which remained dark. The dark image that remained on the linen was notable for its three dimensional rendering - similar to what is seen on the Shroud of Turin. This 3-D image was created by the composite of shadows cast by the painted glass face: as the sun moved from sunrise to sunset, the changing angle of light striking the painted glass produced a three dimensional image of the face on the cloth. His method, though admittedly crude and preliminary, has nonetheless attracted the attention of several sindonologists, notably the late Raymond Rogers[citation needed] of the original STURP team, and Antonio Lombatti[citation needed], founder of the skeptical shroud journal Approfondimento Sindone. Wilson's method is notable because it does not require any conjectures about unknown medieval technologies and is compatible with claims that there is no pigment on the cloth. However, the experiment has not been repeated and the images have yet to face microscopic and chemical analysis. In addition, concerns have been raised about the availability or affordability of medieval glass large enough to produce the image and the method's compatibility with Fanti's claim that the original image is doubly superficial.
                  "Мир - это моя страна, все люди - мои братья, а моя религия - делать добро". - Томас Пейн

                  Комментарий

                  • Гуманист
                    Завсегдатай

                    • 16 July 2007
                    • 861

                    #774
                    Сообщение от .Аlex.
                    Вы можете говорить предметно?
                    Прочитайте Иоанна 19:39-40. Благовония принесли? Иисуса завернули в пелена с благовониями? Его погребли?

                    Ну и всё. Откуда кровь на помытом теле? Где благовония? Где пелена? Где платок?
                    "Мир - это моя страна, все люди - мои братья, а моя религия - делать добро". - Томас Пейн

                    Комментарий

                    • Гуманист
                      Завсегдатай

                      • 16 July 2007
                      • 861

                      #775
                      Сообщение от .Аlex.
                      А ваше хомвидео это мнение экспертов?
                      Ваш вопрос хоть как-то делает Джексона экспертом? Ну и всё. Ищите независимых экспертов, которые бабло от Ватикана не получают.

                      А еще Вы забыли ответить о том, почему Католическая церковь сама в 14 веке считала плащаницу поддельной.
                      "Мир - это моя страна, все люди - мои братья, а моя религия - делать добро". - Томас Пейн

                      Комментарий

                      • .Аlex.
                        Отключен

                        • 12 November 2007
                        • 15318

                        #776
                        Леонардо, тамплиеры...
                        Дайте научную версию в которой объясняется, каким образом на полотне одновременно возникли изображение и следы распятого тела

                        Комментарий

                        • .Аlex.
                          Отключен

                          • 12 November 2007
                          • 15318

                          #777
                          Сообщение от Гуманист
                          Прочитайте Иоанна 19:39-40. Благовония принесли? Иисуса завернули в пелена с благовониями? Его погребли?

                          Ну и всё. Откуда кровь на помытом теле? Где благовония? Где пелена? Где платок?
                          Рекомендую почитать сообщение №761

                          Комментарий

                          • .Аlex.
                            Отключен

                            • 12 November 2007
                            • 15318

                            #778
                            Сообщение от Гуманист

                            А еще Вы забыли ответить о том, почему Католическая церковь сама в 14 веке считала плащаницу поддельной.
                            наверное они ознакомились c результатами исследований Маккроуна...

                            Комментарий

                            • Гуманист
                              Завсегдатай

                              • 16 July 2007
                              • 861

                              #779
                              Сообщение от .Аlex.
                              Леонардо, тамплиеры...
                              Дайте научную версию в которой объясняется, каким образом на полотне одновременно возникли изображение и следы распятого тела
                              Подрисовать следы от ран и кровь на изображении - проще простого. Следы распятого тела как раз говорят о том, что это подделка. Тело Христа было помыто перед погребением, и кровь из него уж точно бы не текла. Так что объясняйте, откуда у покойника из всех ран течет кровь.
                              "Мир - это моя страна, все люди - мои братья, а моя религия - делать добро". - Томас Пейн

                              Комментарий

                              • Гуманист
                                Завсегдатай

                                • 16 July 2007
                                • 861

                                #780
                                Сообщение от .Аlex.
                                Рекомендую почитать сообщение №761
                                Эта статья - полный бред. Скажите в двух словах, какой аргумент Вам показался убедительным, и я опровергну его. Итак, еще раз спрашиваю...

                                1. Почему у покойника из всех ран течет кровь?
                                2. Почему нет следов благовоний?
                                3. Где пелена и платок?
                                "Мир - это моя страна, все люди - мои братья, а моя религия - делать добро". - Томас Пейн

                                Комментарий

                                Обработка...