"Делай, что должен" или "делай, что хочешь"?

[Lokky]

Как это нет?! Конечно есть. Право на грех - важнейшее из многочисленных прав человека.

Ну... вычитал я на форуме мнение некоторых товарысчэй. Того и спросил - если бы у нас, вдруг, были бы разные мнения на сей счёт, то весь разговор был бы не конструктивен.

Если бы человек обладал мерой праведности, то ваше заключение можно было бы проверить. А т.к. этой мерой обладает только господь Бог, не могу ни подтвердить ваши слова, ни опровергнуть. Однако примечательно, что первый христианский монах - Святой Антоний (252-356 г.г.), не смотря на аскетический образ жизни прожил 105 (!) лет, что втрое превышает среднюю продолжительность жизни в то время

? Ну это же я оспаривал Ваше высказывание, что если жить не праведно, то длительность жизни меньше, а не наоборот! А примеров... ну Вы же отлично знаете, что "образец" праведности прожил в три раза меньше! (я молчу про младенцев, я молчу про негодяев, в частности фашистских недобитков, проживших до глубокой старости)

Не нам оценивать что для Него мелко, а что - нет. Тем более цель Его отнюдь не упомянутое вами "чтоб"...

1) я не знаю Его цель. Если бы я стану утверждать, что знаю в чём состоит Его Цель, или что я знаю, в чём не состоит Его Цель - остановите меня плиззз... не хотелось бы впадать в такую гордыню, даже, случайно...
2) мы вполне можем высказывать предположения, в чём Его Цель (не знать! а предпологать! -обсуждать). И мы вполне можем высказывать мнение, что то или иное предполажение выглядит как-то мелко для устоявшегося у нас представления о Всевышнем. Например, что он считает, что созданная им тварь лично что-то должна Ему.

[revelation]

Мир вам!

revelation

Думаю, что ни армянский, ни русский перевод не являются точными,

как и любой другой перевод....

а английский является.

С чего бы вдруг?
С уважением,

То, что английский перевод верен в данной конкретной ситуации - моё личное мнение (я не утверждаю это, поэтому и написал: "Думаю, что...") Просто обычно слово "раб" употребляют по отношению к человеку, чью волю не учитывают и который не может делать что-либо по своей воле. Но по-моему, свобода выбора - это одно из проявлений Божьей любви к человеку.

Со взаимным уважением

[revelation]

Мир вам!

revelation
Мир вам!

Церкви - носители языка потенциальных пользователей Библии.

Так и не понял: утверждён ли NIV поместными церквами?
Еще непонятно и с армянскими переводами. Перевод приведённого мною места в современном армянском переводе совпадает с русским синодальным, а в более раннем западноармянском- с NIV.

Недавно прочитал, что институт перевода Библии (ИПБ) переводит на данный момент Библию на языки стран СНГ с благословения Патриарха Алексия II, согласуя этот перевод с Синодом. Пока этот перевод не завершён. Интересно будет почитать и сравнить с уже имеющимися.

P.S. И всё-таки, вопрос остался - какой перевод Библии на английский язык Православная Церковь считает приемлимым?

[Лука]

Мир вам! И всё-таки, вопрос остался - какой перевод Библии на английский язык Православная Церковь считает приемлимым?

Мир вам! Поинтересуйтесь есть ли в англоязычных странах Православная Церковь, найдите их сайты в сети и задайте этот вопрос там.

[Priestess]

P.S. И всё-таки, вопрос остался - какой перевод Библии на английский язык Православная Церковь считает приемлимым?

Вот по теме нашла статью американского представителя Греческой Православной Церкви. Если кто не сумеет прочесть по-английски, могу перевести на русский.

Can You Tell Me Which Translation The Eastern Orthodox Church Uses and Why?
by His Eminence Metropolitan Isaiah of Proikonisou and Presiding Hierarch of the Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver. The actual title of this presentation written by His Eminence Metropolitan Isaiah is titled: "Which English Translation Of The Bible Should I Use"? This outstanding article has appeared in the Diocesan Bulletin of the Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver.


Christianity in America is often characterized as a faith of the "Bible-thumpers." Our cities are indeed filled with "Bible churches" and the Holy Scriptures are widely assumed to be the basis of Christianity itself.

In response to this, either out of sense of "catching up" or to confront the more outlandish claims (sometimes against Orthodoxy) of fundamentalist, Bible based "Christianity" most of our Orthodox parishes hold regular "Bible study" classes.

Faithful Orthodox believers who come to these classes, and even their pastors, are quickly confronted with a vast array of Bible translations, and Bibles themselves come in all colors, sizes, shapes, and with without "study helps".

To some, the very Bible itself seems wrapped in veritable "tower of Babel" with every one we meet seeming to quote Scripture passages just a little bit differently -- and some who denounce one translation while extolling another.

To answer the question posed as the title of this article, however, we must first examine what the Bible is, and then examine its various sources and translations.


Strictly Speaking, there never was a "Bible" in the Orthodox Church. At least not as we commonly think of the Bible as az single volume book we can hold in our hand. Since the beginning of the Church, from the start of our liturgical tradition, there has never been a single book in an Orthodox church we could point to as "the Bible".

Instead the various "Books" of the Bible are found scattered throughout several service books located either on the Holy Altar itself, or at the chanter"s stand. The Gospels (or their pericopes) are complied into a single volume -- usually bound in precious metal and richly decorated -- placed on the Holy Altar.

The Epistles (or, again, their pericopes) are bound together in another book, called the Apostolos, which is normally found at the changer"s stand. Usually located next to the Apostolos on the chanter"s shelf are the twelve volumes of the Menaion, as well as the books called the Triodion and Pentekostarion, containing various segments of the Old and the New Testaments.

The fact that there is no "Bible" in the church should not surprise us, since our liturgical tradition is a continuation of the practices of the early Church, when the Gospels and the letters from the Apostles (the Epistles) had been freshly written and copied for distribution to the Christian communities.

The "Hebrew Scriptures" (what we now call the "Old Testament", comprising the Law (the first five books) and the Prophets, were likewise written on various scrolls, just as they were found in the Jewish synagogues.


The Church is NOT Based on the Bible. Rather, the Bible is a product of the Church. For the first few centuries of the Christian era, no one could have put his hands on a single volume called "The Bible." In fact, there was no one put his hands on a single volume called "The Bible." In fact, there was no agreement regarding which "books" of Scripture were to be considered accurate and correct, or canonical.

Looking back over history, there were various "lists" of the canonical "books" comprising the Bible:

• The Muratorian Canon (130 AD) cities all the books we considered as parts of the Bible today, except for Hebrews, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation/Apocalypse
• Canon 60 of the local Council of Laodicea (364 AD) cited Revelation/Apocalypse
• A festal Epistle by Saint Athanasius (369 AD) lists all of them.

Even so, there was no official, authoritative "canon" listing all the books until the Sixth Ecumenical Council, at Constantinople in 680 AD. Canon II of that Council ratifies the First through the Fifth Ecumenical Councils, as well as the local councils at Carthage (255 AD), Ancyra (315 AD), Neocaesaria (315 AD), Gangra (340 AD), Antioch (341 AD), Laodicea (364 A), Sardica (347 AD), Constantinople (394 AD), and Carthage (419 AD).

When the Council at Laodicea specified the content of the bible as we know it - 39 years after the First Ecumenical Council (325 AD) and 17 years before the second Ecumenical Council (381 AD) - the Liturgy was pretty much well-defined and established and had been "canonized" by common usage the reading from these books.

It was not until the invention of the printing press in Western Europe, coinciding with the period of the Protestant Reformation of Western Christianity that "The Bible" was widely disseminated as a single volume.


The "Protestant" Old Testament in Antithetical to Christian Truth. When Protestant Western Christians reviewed the canonical books of Scripture, they adopted the "Hebrew Canon" accepted by the Jews since 100 AD.

The so-called Apocrypha, or Deuterocanonical, books (found in "Catholic" and "Orthodox" versions of the Bible) were a problem for Jews living after the time of Christ, since they often very clearly prophesy concerning Our Lord, and indicate His divinity.

Some of the books were also problematic for both the Jews and the Protestants because they make prophetically evident the special role of the Theotokos in the oikonomia of salvation. In fact, the Orthodox Fathers cite passages quite effectively to discuss the Church"s understanding of the role of the Theotokos.

Also, they only scriptural reference to praying for the dead is found in a Deuterocanonical Book: viz., Maccabees.

Not surprisingly, these Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books were rejected from the "canon" of books indicated in the Jewish Scriptures. This canon was formally pronounced by a rabbinical council at Jamnia (c. 100 AD), which stated that all canonical Scripture had to have been written: in Palestine, in Hebrew (not Greek), and more then 400 years prior (300 BC) to that time.

In addition, the authorized Hebrew "translation" was at variance with the accepted Septuagint Greek versions, which had been prepared by 72 translators accepted Septuagint Greek version, which had been prepared by 72 translators working in Alexandria Egypt.

This is significant, because the Apostles, who were the authors of the New Testament, as well as the early Church Fathers, frequently cite passages only found in the Septuagint (Greek) Old Testament that have significant differences in meaning from the Hebrew. Moreover, they frequently cite passages from the "Apocryphal" books of the Old Testament.


The Holy Scriptures Were Produced by the Orthodox Church. The Church's holy prophets and Apostles wrote the books contained in the Bible. The Church determined which books were authoritative and belonged in Holy Scripture. The Church preserved and passed on the texts of these Scriptural books.

The seventy-two Jewish rabbis and scholars who gave us the Septuagint Greek Old Testament, produced seventy-two identical Greek translations working independently and in insolation from one another. Writing in Greek, the Holy Apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude produced the books of the New Testament.


The Holy Scriptures Were Preserved by the Orthodox Church. These books and letters were studied, copied, collected, recopied, passed from group of early Christians to another, and read in the services of the Church.

Testimony to the fidelity of reproduction in this milieu is the consistent agreement among the Church Fathers when they cite Scripture, and their common understanding of Scripture in their deliberations at the local and Ecumenical councils.
Over the centuries, alterations crept into some manuscripts. Sometimes the texts were altered by accident (e.g.., mistakes made in copying these books by hand). At other times intentional alterations were made, either by misguided but innocent copyists who thought they were correcting errors in the manuscripts they were working from, or by heretics who full intended to change the words of Scripture to suit their purposes.


The Church, however, guided by the Holy Spirit, distinguished between authentic and inauthentic manuscripts, discarding or ignoring the latter, copying and handing on the former.

Even today we see the authentic words of Scripture preserved. When a young priest or a chanter mispronounces a word in its original Greek, there will be a Bishop, an older priest -- or even a venerable Orthodox "grandmother" -- who will be quick to point out the aberration from the way the text "has always been sung or read"!
<>

What Translation Should I Use? The answer is this: the King James Version (KJV) is the most reliable and faithful English translation...
<>

Holy Scripture In the Eastern Orthodox Church

[Росинка]

У меня возник такой вопрос: каким принципом лично каждый из читающих сейчас эти слова руководствуется в своей жизни? Он делает то, что должен, или то, что хочешь. Я намеренно не употребляю слово "изволишь" в своей формулировке, т.к. знаю об особом смысле, который вкладывают в него телемиты. Мне бы хотелось немного "упростить" задачу - есть у человека долг, есть его обязательства, возлагаемые на него обществом, моралью, совестью, им самим; есть так же его желания, которые зачастую вступают в конфликт с долгом. Сталкивались ли Вы с подобным антагонизмом и какой выбор вам больше по душе? И почему? Какова роль долга в нашей жизни, какова роль желания? И все такое - сабж!

Ну ты и капканы расставил.А третий вариан может быть?
Например, если я хочу делать то, что хочет от меня Господь? - Это увлекает......
Имя ТВОЁ - как разлитое мирро.Поэтому девицы любят ТЕБЯ.

[aka Zhandos]

Ну, если нет у тебя своей воли - то ее нет Безвольное ты существо